Episode 28: Berlin

V dnešním díle si povídáme o městě, které bylo ještě v nedávné minulosti rozděleno zdí a které je i dnes plné kontrastů. Berlín, ve dne tu lidé milují ježdění na kole po všudypřítomných cyklostezkách a užívají si rozlehlých parků (je to jedno z nejzelenějších velkoměst v Evropě) a v noci se tu rozduní hudba ze stovek klubů. Místní techno scéna už ale dávno není underground jen pro pár vyvolených, je to natolik významná součást berlínského života, že byla letos zapsána na seznam nehmotného kulturního dědictví UNESCO. Když do takového klubu vejdete, tak vám foťák na mobilu hned u vstupu přelepí černou samolepkou, protože anonymita, svoboda jedince a pocit, že tu každý může být tím, kým zrovna chce, je zde největší hodnotou. V Berlíně je i světově nejznámější a zároveň i nejtajemnější klub Berghain, umístěný v bývalé elektrárně, jehož pověst je opředena mýty, tajemstvím a skoro až mystickou atmosférou. Na vstup se tu běžně čeká i třeba pět hodin a i tak vás přímo u dveří vyhazovač bez udání důvodu nemusí pustit dovnitř. A co se děje uvnitř, to nikdo neví, protože jak říká Australano-Francouzska Maddy, která je mojí dnešní berlínskou průvodkyní: "whatever happens in Berghain, stays in Berghain". V Berlíně jsou si prostě všichni rovni, takže i samotný Kanye West si tu musí vystát frontu na kebab.

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:32

Thank you very much for tuning in to this episode, and it is a very special episode for me because I have a very special guest today and that's my dear friend, maddy Hi, maddy how is life, life is great.

Speaker 3 0:46

Yeah, spring is springing.

Speaker 2 0:49

Oh, great Well, it was snowing here today, so oh, wow. Yeah.

Speaker 3 0:55

We're on the brink of something good. It's not quite there yet.

Speaker 2 0:57

Okay and well, we are going to be talking about your hometown, your current hometown, and that is the hipster city of the world. Uh, do you consider yourself a hipster?

Speaker 3 1:09

um, no, I don't think anyone these days would like to self-proclaim themselves as a hipster, but I definitely dabble in the alternative scenes of berlin.

Speaker 2 1:19

So call it what you will, but I won't no, I understand, I understand, I think, if you, if people like, say about themselves that they're hipsters, that's what not they lose their title immediately yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:31

I have. I think I have the self-awareness to not proclaim it, but you'll tell me by the end of this chat if I'm a hipster or not.

Speaker 2 1:38

I think you are. I can tell you right now okay and well, you already said it, the the title of our episode today. So that is your hometown, which is Berlin. So what do you think sets Berlin apart from other major European cities? Why did you choose this place to become your home?

Speaker 3 1:56

Well, the choice was not so much mine. It was more a personal choice based on my romantic relationship at the time. I've been here for about eight years now and I had an ex-boyfriend that was fascinated with Berlin, loved it, wanted to go back. That was the ultimate goal and my ultimate goal was to chill longer with my boyfriend. So we made it work and I followed him there and we quickly broke up.

Speaker 3 2:23

But I never looked back because there's just so much to love in the city and it just stands out and stands completely on its own compared to a lot of European capitals and it's really quite uncomparable. Unlike other places. It's like the only capital that I know that doesn't really rely on grandeur or opulence to assert its identity, that doesn't really rely on grandeur or opulence to assert its identity. It's really like its identity and its DNA is at its core, because it's raw and edgy and a bit gross and, yeah, it's just not appealing in its aesthetic but it's appealing in its lifestyle and I don't know that a lot of other places can say that about themselves, that they're great because they're ugly.

Speaker 2 3:06

Yeah, I think this is like something what we discussed last time I went to visit you in Berlin and we said that Berlin is beautiful in its ugliness.

Speaker 3 3:14

Exactly. There's a famous quote that says Berlin is broke but sexy.

Speaker 2 3:19

OK, yeah, it is. And so where do you think that this fascination that you talked about, like? Where is it coming from? Why are people so fascinated?

Speaker 3 3:27

and reunification, and so they really have claimed back the city as their own, as a place where you can't tell people what to do, and I think that's quite a safe haven for a lot of creatives and artists that decide to come over because it's a lifestyle that is supposed to be free of judgment.

Speaker 3 3:58

But on top of that like for me the city is it's a capital that it just has got so much space. And now there's a lot of development going on in the city, but back when I moved here, just like the amount, the density of it was just like non-existent. There was. There's parks, everywhere there's space. It's not a concrete jungle, which means that by default there's not that much of like a sensory overload that you normally get with a big capital city and and I have that as a French person when I go to Paris and back when we lived in London I had it in London there's just so much of everything everywhere humans, buildings, people frenetically all over the place, and this is just the slowest city I've ever lived in, like people are just cruising through life at their own pace and it's very tangible, it's and it's really appealing to me as a slow human.

Speaker 3 4:51

I'm also a sloth, so I love Berlin yeah, it's like you never feel pressure, and I think that a lot of everyone's frenetic energy in life permeates onto other people. So if you're surrounded by people walking fast, going places, not looking around, not stopping and chilling, then you it transpires into how you engage with the space too. And, yeah, conversely, here people are so slow that it slowed me down even more.

Speaker 2 5:15

Oh, that's great.

Speaker 3 5:16

Yeah, and I don't mean that people are just walking slow, that's not what I mean. It's just that there's less sense of urgency in the air and, yeah, I like that a lot. And also, you know, for an ugly grey city, it's a very green city, like we have the biggest beautiful green parks all over, scattered everywhere, in every neighbourhood. We have fantastic public transport system. We have really safe biking infrastructures. There's no real tangible generation gap. It's kind of a city for everyone in all ages. I don't know, there's just so much going on for Berlin and it's definitely a city that's shifting a lot nowadays, but I think at its core it's still what it used to be 10 years ago.

Speaker 2 5:58

So you've already mentioned the history. So how do you think that Berlin's history shaped its current cultural identity?

Speaker 3 6:06

I mean, I think it's the core of its identity. Everything that Berlin is today is because of its history and you know it goes back to the World Wars. It goes back to prior occupation and the Cold War and its reunification and it's like completely this forced separation within the same city is pretty unheard of historically speaking, and to have that be then reunified was like such a sense of celebration and freedom and access to something that was just over a wall. It's crazy to think that there was a capital living together that were intangible to each other and they were meters away from each other, and I think that that's really created a sense of resilience and adaptability that has really shaped the cultural DNA of Berlin.

Speaker 3 6:57

And you have, living in the city, a visual stamp of this division still today, like this wall is still up in certain neighborhoods. Obviously you can go past them now they no longer act as division, but they're a constant reminder of what it was like to be separated. And then the fall of this war was like the epitome of like a city's triumph and, you know, a triumph over, like ideological constraints, and that has been the backdrop of Berlin ever since the 90s. Now it's, it's a culture that values freedom, resilience, diversity, the right to self-expression, the right to movement too. And yeah, I think it's like a beautiful tapestry for what Berlin is today, because you know this history.

Speaker 2 7:43

It's very rare to enter a town and have the history so in your face yeah, and also yeah, as you say, like this history that also like, provides so much. You know there's always something to learn, I feel, for everyone. So even today, like you know, there's so much to learn from the history we can learn today. And so you also said that you know it is considered a haven for artists and creatives. So how do you think that the city supports its creative community?

Speaker 3 8:08

I think it's definitely shifted.

Speaker 3 8:10

I think maybe if we'd had this chat like six, seven years ago, I would have said that, you know, nurturing the creative, the creatives in the city light and making the city affordable. I think it's quite famously known that artists and creatives have a harder time earning a living. It's a lot more precarious of an industry to work in, and having spaces and studio spaces and living spaces that are affordable makes it possible for them to exist and to invest in their art. That being said, it's really expensive to live in Berlin these days. It's actually not what it used to be and I think it's unfortunately driving away a lot of the creatives who are moving even further, east and south, because people can't really afford studio spaces anymore and they can't afford gallery spaces and just even live. So it's I don't know. I think that the ethos is still here in the air in Berlin. It is a creative city. Think that the ethos is still here in the air in Berlin. It is a creative city, but today I don't know that anyone would run to.

Berlin's Street Art and Nightlife

Speaker 2 9:16

Berlin anymore, and so it's also known for its vibrant street art scene. So how do you think that the street art has contributed to the city's culture? Because, like I feel like you see it everywhere when you come to Berlin, like everywhere is street art.

Speaker 3 9:30

Absolutely, and it's really cool because it's one of the few cities where the presence of graffiti and street art in general is not doesn't devalue property and doesn't devalue a neighborhood, whereas elsewhere it probably would, and it would probably be a stamp of like what the energy and vibes of that neighborhood is. And it's kind of the opposite here, like having that happen, having those. It's a really beautiful artwork, so when you do come across it in the street, it's quite stunning. It really does enhance the building rather than diminish its value and so, um, I kind of like that attitude towards it because it is art.

Speaker 3 10:11

You know, and I think we can all realize today that street art and spray painting is a form of art like any other medium. And, yeah, I think it was initially like it starts off as like an act of rebellion, but then, back in the 90s, for instance, and now they're remnants of what used to be and they're quite celebrated, especially on the Berlin Wall itself. I mean, if you've ever been to Berlin, you you know about the Eastside Mall, like the Eastside Gallery sorry, the Eastside Mall is a shopping center right now, the Eastside Gallery, which is, you know, the epitome of street art in the world, which is artists that came together to to leave their mark on the symbol of division, and now it's the main tourist attraction of the city. It's coming to watch people reclaim a space that they didn't have a decision on. Yeah, it's a part, it's a huge part of the identity today and in Berlin.

Speaker 2 11:08

Wouldn't be Berlin without its street art and we also have to mention, obviously, the nightlife, because it is legendary and there are clubs and parties that seem to never end like ever, and so they probably start on you tell me, but I think they start on Friday and and on set on Sunday, monday, maybe yeah so what do you think sets Berlin's nightlife apart from other major cities? And we also have to obviously mention the Berghain. You have to tell us about it, because I've never been.

Speaker 3 11:42

I know you've been, so so yeah, I mean, nightlife is legendary and it's like sheer intensity of it and the freedom that it embodies um like club culture. I don't know if you've heard, but just this year was um techno club culture was named a unesco heritage oh, wow yeah, it's that.

Speaker 3 12:02

It's that big of a deal, I mean it's. It's a space where you can let loose and also have a sense of anonymity about it. The fact that you can walk into a clubbing space and have your telephone cameras covered by stickers. The policy is no cameras.

Speaker 2 12:22

Yeah, that's what happens in, I suppose, every club that you enter, and they put a sticker on your camera so that you can't take photos.

Speaker 3 12:30

The golden rule of clubbing in Berlin is that you're allowed to do so, and you should. It's your right to go out, have fun and not be recognized and not be accosted for who you are on the outside world. So the idea is to create a safe space for you to essentially do what you want, and that's why the city has like quite liberal attitudes towards partying in general. But it's also, like, I think, for a lot of people it's like a form of expression, it's a form of celebration and, yeah, also reclaiming spaces like this. Club culture really just started at the end of the when the wall fell. It was about reclaiming all these old spaces and then these spaces turned into cultural institutions and, yeah, I mean, it's quite liberating when you go to it, the sense of like I don't know community that you get inside. But for Berghain, the golden rule with Berghain is that you can't.

Speaker 2 13:26

Rolling Stones magazine wrote about Berghain and it is a club that is just between the two boroughs right, exactly, friedrichshain my beautiful German pronunciation and what's the other one? It's Berg Kreuzberg. Yes, and honestly, I was shocked because I saw it like for the first time last year and I thought it would be this because I read this article ages ago. And I thought it would be this because I read this article ages ago and I thought it would be this like small underground space, you know, just like a little pub somewhere like underneath the streets, and it is a massive old factory, like it's massive, and there are queues, like people queue for hours right to get into Berghain. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 14:09

I mean it's in an old power plant and, as you say, like it's just back in the Cold War. Kreuzberg was the west and Friedrichshain was the east, and when the city reunified they became one borough together and they're just separated by the river and it really does lie at like the sort of coming together of two separate parts of the city. I mean it's a monster of a place in there. It's got many stages, it's got this grandeur in its industrial energy and it's got a really selective door process. That being said, it's completely arbitrary. You'll see tons of articles online of like what's the trick to get in? Like, what should you wear? Should you wear all black? How to communicate with the bouncers? Like I think the idea is that there's no rule and everybody tries to create a rule that then eventually gets disproven, and I think you just you have to give it your best shot gets disproven and I think you just you, have to give it your best shot. Go in, go in with the plan that if you don't get in, you have another plan.

Speaker 2 15:18

Go in. Like you say, go in. But if you spent five hours waiting and then there's a bouncer and he tells you, oh, go away, and you're like, and then also like our mutual friend, she told me that you have to then do the like, the walk of shame, because you go past the queue and everyone sees you you're right, but I think that no one goes to berghain without the knowledge that this is the expectation.

Speaker 3 15:41

So I think like, even though you have to do a walk of shame, I don't think people consider it a walk of shame, because it's 50 of the people that are in that queue. Everyone, every night, gets bounced at that door and it's 50% of the people that are in that queue. Everyone, every night, gets bounced at that door and it's the humbling experience at the beginning, but it's also almost a part of the experience. I don't know like you go in knowing that that's a possible outcome and when you already know that there's a chance you could get bounced. You don't take getting rejected that hard because you're getting it rejected alongside hundreds and hundreds of people on the same night and there's no real reason you're getting rejected. You're not being told you're not getting in because your outfit's shit or because you know your attitude's not in line with you know the demographic inside you. Just, you just get told not today and you go okay, then you walk away and it's a long time and I and I have to say I think it's half people wanting to see what it's like inside who are willing to do the queue just to find out what it's like inside and then half people who are in it because you get the most insane lineups. And if you're really into techno and that's really really your thing, then you are going to get sort of the creme de la creme of lineups and for a lot of people that is worth the wait as well. If you're like me, where you like to club but you're not too fussed about techno, you stop bothering and you only go if it really makes sense for you. But because, I mean, berlin is scattered with clubs everywhere, I think Berghain is the holy grail to some and very much not for others yeah, I just find it so interesting and fascinating really that like a place can create such aura and such atmosphere around it.

Speaker 2 17:29

It's such a mythical place that I feel like there's nothing like this in the world, or there's no place like this in the world.

Speaker 3 17:37

No, I mean, I think worldwide people can all agree that Berghain is sort of the reference. I think a lot of clubs are now shifting towards becoming similar spaces so you can definitely find the same kind of fun elsewhere, but it won't have the same sort of cultural baggage and excitement about getting inside. Yeah, I mean, you definitely have to experience it at least once because it's really quite fascinating and it's it's a microcosm of this whole Berlin spirit that we're talking about, of like freedom, music, art converging in this like crazy ecstatic dance space.

Speaker 2 18:11

Yeah, and what you said privacy also. I love that about Berlin that you can really be whoever you want to be, you can be. You can just be yourself and no one's ever going to be judging you, which is so great in this, in today's world.

Speaker 3 18:25

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 18:27

And you know, berlin is often described as a city of contrasts, blending rich history with everything that's modern, and how do you think this very unique juxtaposition shapes the city's character and appeal? I mean, we've talked about it a little bit already.

Speaker 3 18:41

Yeah, I mean it ties back into what I was saying about the history of it is that you have sort of very old century old buildings and I'm talking before the Cold War and the Eastern regime like very beautiful old buildings alongside Soviet buildings, alongside very modern new developments that are popping up left, right and center at the moment. So you really have a visual contrast. If anything, yeah, I mean I think that's part of the aesthetic tapestry of Berlin is that there's no aesthetic that really makes sense. It's a bit of everything in its own place and take it or leave it, but it definitely, definitely doesn't come together as like a beautiful whole um, and you can also see the contrasts by neighborhood, from neighborhood to neighborhood, because, as I said, it was divided east and west and the architecture from east to west is, like drastically different.

Hidden Gems and Misconceptions of Berlin

Speaker 3 19:36

I mean, I think we can all imagine what a Soviet avenue looks like and that's what a lot of the east side of Berlin looks like. It's very majestic in a kind of almost threatening way. They're grand, they're very grand and I think for someone like me who grew up in France and Australia, it's very impressive, like it's like history at your fingertips, but it's also very like it's very hard to ignore it and it's a very sort of like omnipresent feeling, when you're around it, of very tangible recent history. I know we talk about it like it was ages ago, but this is like our parents' eras, so it's very close history still and it's a big reminder for a lot of people that are still walking around those streets today.

Speaker 3 20:26

Yeah, it's like Ministry of Truth in 1984, george Orwell's book Absolutely and the west is a bit more scattered and old school kind of almost like vienna or something like that so what do you think are some like lesser known fun facts or hidden gems or attractions in berlin?

Speaker 2 20:50

one thing, one thing comes to mind and you told you told me about it last time I went to see you and that's the. How do you call them? Spetsies, spetsies, yeah, yeah, you can tell what it is.

Speaker 3 21:02

Yeah, so a speti is a spetkauf, and a spetkauf is essentially like a milk bar or like an off shop where you would buy tobacco, alcohol, like a small supermarket, yeah, like a mini mart. That's all around town and they're everywhere, numerous, like numerous per street, um, and they, they stay open very, very late, which means that you can kind of always count on getting a snack at three, four in the morning. If you want a beer to go, they're ready to go, um, but they're definitely not hidden because they're all over town. They're great in the summer, uh, because basically the sped calves that are that buy um sort of pavement uh, they're right to have chairs and tables on the pavement can then put out benches and then, instead of going to a bar and paying 15 euros for a cocktail, you can go into the sped and buy your pint of beer for two euros and then drink it out on the bench outside.

Speaker 3 22:01

And it's great for people like me, who don't want to spend that much money on drinks, and me, because you get to still be with your friends around the table and chat and still consume alcohol or drink or not, whatever you want to drink, without the budget going to waste, and also, when the sun's out in Berlin, people are more inclined to be outdoors anyway. So it's the perfect, happy middle. When you don't want a bar atmosphere but you still want to gather with your friends around the bevy, you're set yeah, I find it so great.

Speaker 2 22:30

I think every city should have this, and everyone also has their favorite spiti and the.

Speaker 3 22:35

It used to be this way that the cheapest beer you could get in Berlin that was the most basic pilsner out there but did the job was a Sterni. And a Sterni used to cost like 60 cents for a pint and it honestly did the job most basic pilsner out there. And then as inflation crept in over the decade, the Sterni prices went up, crept in over the decade, the Shterni prices went up and you could always tell which Spettkauf was like the good Spettkauf based on how far they priced their Shterni. So if the Shterni was all of a sudden 1 euro 20, you can know as a reference point that Spettkauf really went not good, not good, really overboard with their pricing.

Speaker 3 23:20

And so when you find that spit calf that has a stanny that's still for 80 cents or something like that, you're like all right, you're a keeper love you forever yeah that's great.

Speaker 2 23:29

And so what are some common? Do you think if if there are any misconceptions about berlin that you would like to debunk?

Speaker 3 23:37

I mean, I think that Berlin is just a party city. I mean, I think a lot of people, our age at least, come here because they hear about, you know, the party scene and it permeates our culture, for sure, but it's really not the life of half the people that live in this city. And you know, this is a capital. We're a slow capital to develop, but it's still a capital nonetheless. A lot of people are coming here for job opportunities. A lot of people are here because of immigration deals that were set up in the 70s and the 90s and whatnot. And yeah, I think the fact that we're, like, reduced to just being a party city sort of like, overlooks the rich kind of cultural and artistic life that thrives throughout the daytime. It's not just a city for the night, I would say, and there's a lot more to it.

Speaker 2 24:31

Also what you said before it's a city for every generation. It's not like you only see youngsters, you know, partying on the streets. That's not.

Speaker 3 24:39

Yeah, I mean mean you'll club every time with people in their 60s and 70s as well, and those are usually the old timers, the ones who are from Berlin and who just are still going strong.

Culinary Scene and Future in Berlin

Speaker 3 24:48

That's so great. I was just also gonna say, I think, that there's a huge idea that Berliners are not the most friendly and welcoming. They're quite straightforward, they're quite, quite harsh in their way of speaking and I think to a certain extent it's true, but I think that when you live in it and you get used to it, you understand it's never personal most of the time, and I think that it's not necessarily a place that's hard to integrate into and that's unwelcoming. It just takes some adjustment, but it is a massive city for diversity and openness and it is one of the. I mean, at least it was. It was one of the most accessible cities for newcomers and, yeah, everyone's always like, oh, but they're so mean, they're so not nice. And I think you know you're always going to stumble across people that are grumpy in any city, but with the Berlin grunge added to it, everyone thinks it's a bit next level, but I think they're just as nice or unkind as others.

Speaker 2 25:49

Maybe they're just a bit more straightforward, and I mean that's what happens in many, I think, big cities. This rumor goes around about New Yorkers, but I feel like there must be so many super nice New Yorkers and Londoners. We know so many nice Londoners. It's not like everyone in London is just running around and being having a like hectic life.

Speaker 3 26:06

So this is like the classic thing of we only usually communicate the negative things that happen to us and we very rarely will communicate something standard, run of the mill or positive that happened Like. You'll see always negative reviews online of places, but very rarely unless it was astounding. You'll never see a run of the mill, this place was nice. Whatever kind of review, this is the same people we're always communicating about the not nice people yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 26:34

And two questions more, and one is about a rich culinary scene, because berlin is very much known for it as well. So what do you think are some traditional dishes or food experiences that visitors should not?

Speaker 3 26:48

miss. I mean, there's the very straightforward ones that I think everybody already already knows about. Is you know the currywurst, which is the sausage with sort of like a curry ketchup over it? I mean, I don't love it. I'm not going to lie, it's just street food at its peak, I think that is all there is to. It is that it's ketchup that's been mixed with curry powder and then doused on a sausage, but it is pretty legendary here. The second obvious one is the kebab um, which is a turkish import is it mustafa's kebab, the famous one, the famous one?

Speaker 3 27:27

yeah, absolutely yeah. The one that kanye west was standing in line for that's so funny that he had to wait in line.

Speaker 2 27:33

That's berlin, I feel you know this is the epitome of berlin. Like berlin, like you're not. You're not anybody to us. You're kanye west, but we anybody to us. Yeah, you're Kanye West, but we don't care. Yeah, you stay in line like the rest of us, exactly quite rightly so, um.

Speaker 3 27:48

But yeah, the kebab Mr Faz is the most famous one. Obviously, you'll always see a big queue, um, and in its own right it's a very yummy kebab, but it's not yummier than many other ones you can find around town. It's particularly the gemüse kebab, which means the vegetable kebab, which is one where you'll have your meat and then grilled vegetables and like potato, and then you'll have some sumac and some cheese on top. It's like a whole combination of flavors and it's really really beautiful.

Speaker 2 28:14

The whole experience yeah.

Speaker 3 28:16

I mean it's a Berlin classic, but we have to admit that it's really a Turkish classic.

Speaker 3 28:22

The Germans, I think I would say a lot of the food that we eat today in Berlin is very much due to immigration. Berlin definitely had, like, a lot of Turkish people to come work for temporary contracts in Germany and so there was a huge influx of Turkish people and it's now they there's a Turkish cultural scene here. It's very much like tangible, especially in places like Kreuzberg that we were talking about, and, yeah, it's really like enriched Berlin culture a lot and it's also enriched our food habits and I think it's the place outside of Turkey where you'll be the most familiar with Turkish food, which is really great. And we also had these guest workers come in from Vietnam a lot, but this time in the, it was the DDR that brought in a lot of Vietnamese workers, and now it's a huge part of the culinary scene in Berlin is to eat Vietnamese curries and whatnot, and so, yeah, I'd say, maybe step away from just the currywurst if you can and try a lot of the diversity in the food that we get from our history yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 29:44

And my very last question maddie, 10, 20, 30 years from now, I want to like you, still be very young by then, but do you still see yourself in berlin in your little armchair and reading I don't know whatever your favorite novel?

Future Armchair Plans in Berlin

Speaker 3 30:01

oh my, I have no idea. I have absolutely no. I like to think that yes, um, the classic thing is that everyone's always like, okay, but are you gonna stay forever? And I'm always like no, I'm never gonna stay anywhere forever. Why would anybody do that anywhere these days? And at the same time, every time I think about anywhere else that I could go and I compared to other cities that I have lived or other cities that I could live in. It's just not comparable, and there's a lot of. I mean, I talk about freedom a lot, but there's a lot of freedom in the lifestyle that we all choose to live here. That is just not applicable elsewhere, even in places like London, where I love to live. Before I moved to Berlin, I could not reclaim that sort of lifestyle anywhere else but here, and I can't picture myself giving up a lot of things that I consider normal for myself now. So for now, definitely, I'll be in the armchair, at least for the next five years, I could say, and who knows what life holds?

Speaker 2 31:06

Now you have to stay in Berlin so that I always come and visit. I am the number one visitor. I love Berlin as a visitor. Yeah. Well, maddy, thank you so much. This has been beautiful and thank you for your lovely words and, yeah, I hope that, yeah, we see each other soon in berlin. Thanks for having me, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode as well, and I'll see you next time bye, thank you.